Wednesday, February 28, 2007
Heaven's Just A Sin Away
Limbo, purgatory, hell and levels of heaven-Nuns on best streets so they thought- and don’t forget venial and mortal sins and confession, Sunday Mass ,indulgences and aspirations. Then there was the no meat of Friday and Stations of the Cross, high masses, May Processions, 40 hours, lent and advent.
“What kind of meat does a priest eat on Friday? Nun! ”Catholics should be cultists but they are not. Catholics are not permitted to practice birth control because the purchase-I mean purpose- of sex is only sacramentally approved between a husband and wife for procreation purposes.
Catholics are all over the planet so I’m writing here about North American white Catholics who listen to the theology with a slight degree of skepticism and a larger degree of amusement then proceed to rationalize their own “I’m only human but made in the image and likeness of god” behaviors.
It is rarely Catholics who talk about welcoming Christ into their lives or thanking him for finding the red convertible with low mileage that they feel so blessed to own.
Older Catholics can be found at Mass secretly bargaining with a just yet vengeful god to go easy on them because they can’t help who they are and in the overall scheme of evil in the universe they are not that bad.
Boomer Catholics like me were told that only Catholics can get to real heaven waving to the un-baptized babies in Limbo as the rocket past.
Limbo had been dropped from the pantheon and panorama of improbable deep space resting places and so has the notion that Protestant Christians can’t get their clueless New Christi Minstrel selves into real heaven mostly because they don’t buy the whole Pope is Infallible tenant but no real Catholic indoctrinated in the Sixties really expects to encounter Protestants in heaven or gives a rats ass about the Pope anyway.
In fact as described by Catholic theology heaven needs to include more fun stuff because after 10 million years of non stop fun just how much fun is it? "True fun for you will fueled by the misery of another, "my grandmother said. "But it ain't gonna be me so put the lid back on thecookie can and get out of my kitchen."
Father Freddogg
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Freddogg,
Why does anyone think they can figure out the God of the universe on their own? In this regard we're all like Cliffy the postal employee on Cheers who naively thinks he knows everything about everything. We joke and make light of religious or spiritual things, but what if we are "Cliffys" relative to the Truth, and what we're really doing is pissing God off?
There are many who think that God might not be paying attention, or doesn't care, but is that worth risking? I think I'm as tough as the next guy, but "wailing and knashing of teeth" is not something I want to try even for a little while, much less for the rest eternity.
By the way, people don't find Jesus. He has never been lost. The truth of what takes place in a believer's life is that they are known and chosen by God before the foundation of the world. When God decides it is time for them to "join the family", He draws them to Himself. If a person is not being drawn, it is either not their time yet, or they're not on the list.
When God draws you to Himself and you surrender, He then enables your spirit to come to life (to be born again) to enjoy a personal relationship with Him. This process is unfathomable to an unbeliever because it is intellectually indiscernable. It is also well beyond the limit of temporal awareness.
So you see, going to heaven or hell is not like choosing door number one or door number two on Let's Make a Deal. Instead, it's about being led out of the captivity of the world by a Father who loves you enough to redeem you at a very high price. The only catch is that you have to recognize and acknowledge His Son Jesus Christ as your Redeemer.
A Friend
Why does anyone think they can figure out the God of the universe on their own? In this regard we're all like Cliffy the postal employee on Cheers who naively thinks he knows everything about everything. We joke and make light of religious or spiritual things, but what if we are "Cliffys" relative to the Truth, and what we're really doing is pissing God off?
There are many who think that God might not be paying attention, or doesn't care, but is that worth risking? I think I'm as tough as the next guy, but "wailing and knashing of teeth" is not something I want to try even for a little while, much less for the rest eternity.
By the way, people don't find Jesus. He has never been lost. The truth of what takes place in a believer's life is that they are known and chosen by God before the foundation of the world. When God decides it is time for them to "join the family", He draws them to Himself. If a person is not being drawn, it is either not their time yet, or they're not on the list.
When God draws you to Himself and you surrender, He then enables your spirit to come to life (to be born again) to enjoy a personal relationship with Him. This process is unfathomable to an unbeliever because it is intellectually indiscernable. It is also well beyond the limit of temporal awareness.
So you see, going to heaven or hell is not like choosing door number one or door number two on Let's Make a Deal. Instead, it's about being led out of the captivity of the world by a Father who loves you enough to redeem you at a very high price. The only catch is that you have to recognize and acknowledge His Son Jesus Christ as your Redeemer.
A Friend
# posted by 
: 1:08 PM
: 1:08 PM
There's an argument-it made be called the theory of wages for people who aren't sure if there is a god definitely aren't saved but figure just in case they better do good things and go to chcurch so they can cash on in the afterlife if there is one.
Philosphers have pretty much destroyed this theory posulating if there is an all knowing god he'she would certainly know he was being played like a roulette wheel.
I admire people with a spiritual center and many of them are as tough as the next person-too many fellowship football guys seemd not to feel pain or mine either.
But listing poeple and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made up by earthly humans to me.
Sometimes I believe in continuence other times I think lay me down next to my Chocolate lab Mikey no better no worse and I'm o/k with that.
and thank you for being a friend
Philosphers have pretty much destroyed this theory posulating if there is an all knowing god he'she would certainly know he was being played like a roulette wheel.
I admire people with a spiritual center and many of them are as tough as the next person-too many fellowship football guys seemd not to feel pain or mine either.
But listing poeple and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made up by earthly humans to me.
Sometimes I believe in continuence other times I think lay me down next to my Chocolate lab Mikey no better no worse and I'm o/k with that.
and thank you for being a friend
Freddogg,
You wrote:
"Listing people and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made by earthly humans to me."
This confirms what I wrote in my last post - God's program for mankind is indiscernable until your spirit is "awakened" through genuine faith in Jesus as Lord. Would you be surprised to learn that what you think sounds like something made up by earthly humans is actually the Word of God?
Of course, the problem with that is that you likely don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. No person considers the Bible as the Word of God until their spirit is "brought to life" through genuine faith in His Son. This is a great paradox - we can't believe what we can't understand, and we can't understand unless we first believe. Can you think of a better way for God to make faith the only key that unlocks His door?
I know this because I have been on both sides of this topic. For 39 years I knew there was a "higher being", but could never embrace the notion that the genuine Creator of the universe could be defined or explained by mere humans. If this is what you're thinking, your absolutely correct. However, while man is not able to define God, God does make Himself known and available to man. Why? Because He made us for Himself. He loves us the way you love your kids, but on a much higher level due to His holiness. God's love is pure, while ours is considerably less due to the depravity inherent within us.
So one day (likely a day He determined before the foundation of the world) when I was ready, God drew me, a severe skeptic, to Him. What made me "ready"? I had come to the end of myself, and was ready to worship His Son rather than the false gods of the world in which I had placed my faith, chief of which was my own arrogant pride and self-reliance. You see, we're all beings of faith. No one exists entirely without faith, but what matters is in what we place our faith.
When I was ready to listen, in His perfect way and timing God allowed me to know Him as He has described Himself in His Holy Word. You might be thinking, "Why would God confine Himself to printed words?" The answer: For the same reason you write words - they are yours, they will always be yours, and because they are written they will only be changed with your permission. Written words stand as they are written as long as they exist, and when they cease to exist they are lost forever, as it should be.
The Word of God is truly the revelation of God to mankind. Some will receive it as such, but most will not. He even tells us that.
Finally, don't take if from me. Research the experience of two well-known atheistic journalists - Malcom Muggeridge and Lee Strobel. They tell the story much better than I.
Your Friend
You wrote:
"Listing people and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made by earthly humans to me."
This confirms what I wrote in my last post - God's program for mankind is indiscernable until your spirit is "awakened" through genuine faith in Jesus as Lord. Would you be surprised to learn that what you think sounds like something made up by earthly humans is actually the Word of God?
Of course, the problem with that is that you likely don't believe the Bible is the Word of God. No person considers the Bible as the Word of God until their spirit is "brought to life" through genuine faith in His Son. This is a great paradox - we can't believe what we can't understand, and we can't understand unless we first believe. Can you think of a better way for God to make faith the only key that unlocks His door?
I know this because I have been on both sides of this topic. For 39 years I knew there was a "higher being", but could never embrace the notion that the genuine Creator of the universe could be defined or explained by mere humans. If this is what you're thinking, your absolutely correct. However, while man is not able to define God, God does make Himself known and available to man. Why? Because He made us for Himself. He loves us the way you love your kids, but on a much higher level due to His holiness. God's love is pure, while ours is considerably less due to the depravity inherent within us.
So one day (likely a day He determined before the foundation of the world) when I was ready, God drew me, a severe skeptic, to Him. What made me "ready"? I had come to the end of myself, and was ready to worship His Son rather than the false gods of the world in which I had placed my faith, chief of which was my own arrogant pride and self-reliance. You see, we're all beings of faith. No one exists entirely without faith, but what matters is in what we place our faith.
When I was ready to listen, in His perfect way and timing God allowed me to know Him as He has described Himself in His Holy Word. You might be thinking, "Why would God confine Himself to printed words?" The answer: For the same reason you write words - they are yours, they will always be yours, and because they are written they will only be changed with your permission. Written words stand as they are written as long as they exist, and when they cease to exist they are lost forever, as it should be.
The Word of God is truly the revelation of God to mankind. Some will receive it as such, but most will not. He even tells us that.
Finally, don't take if from me. Research the experience of two well-known atheistic journalists - Malcom Muggeridge and Lee Strobel. They tell the story much better than I.
Your Friend
# posted by : 6:28 PM
: 6:28 PM
Fred,
"Listing people and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made by earthly humans to me."
You are correct. This is made up by a man - John Calvin. "Your friend" and mine also wrote that man is inherently depraved. Man is not depraved until he chooses. And yes man can make a choice to believe or not to believe in what the bible says not because he is "awakened" but because he is intelligent enough to read about God and make a choice. The bible teaches that God calls people through the gospel. Believe it or not...
"Listing people and choosing them and redeeming them like a package it all sounds like pretty much stuff made by earthly humans to me."
You are correct. This is made up by a man - John Calvin. "Your friend" and mine also wrote that man is inherently depraved. Man is not depraved until he chooses. And yes man can make a choice to believe or not to believe in what the bible says not because he is "awakened" but because he is intelligent enough to read about God and make a choice. The bible teaches that God calls people through the gospel. Believe it or not...
# posted by : 7:46 AM
: 7:46 AM
I remember having the honor of being invited to your brother Adam's first sermon and as I sat in the back of the church beforehand and nice people were saying hi and introducing themselves I thought, "Let's not get crazy I'm just here to listen to Adam."
It was funny because Catholics grumple and mumber Latin was even better and that whole "Offer each other the Sign of Peace" stuff is a little much.
A spiritual center is needed for a peaceful life I think and it's a reason public schools can be stark and cold because the first amendment keeps all that out.
Father Freddogg
It was funny because Catholics grumple and mumber Latin was even better and that whole "Offer each other the Sign of Peace" stuff is a little much.
A spiritual center is needed for a peaceful life I think and it's a reason public schools can be stark and cold because the first amendment keeps all that out.
Father Freddogg
Now we're getting warmed up! The Calvinists and Arminians are both reading your stuff Father Freddogg. You have a very diverse group of friends. . .
The most important thing for you at this point is to decide who REALLY drives the bus - God or man. Calvinists say "God", while Arminians say "man".
If you say "man", then you might as well keep on driving your own bus. But if you say "God", then the smart money says make sure you're on the one He's driving unless, of course, you don't care to go where He's going.
Your Arminian buddies are good boys, and well-intentioned but a little short on knowledge of God's Word. Calvin didn't write it, God did, and He's the one who tells us we're depraved. (Do I really have to convince you that you're naturally less than pink and pure?) You and I are old enough to know that what's being discussed here is more than "Follow The Leader" and "Simon Says". This is about Who runs all of creation, and whether or not He cares about what we're up to evey minute of the day. My guess is that since He tells me He is familiar with every hair on my head, then He probably also cares about more significant things about me - like where I'm going to spend eternity. Believe it or not, it's all there in His Book.
But like I said, don't take my word for it. Crank up your courage and check out Muggeridge and Strobel. And by the way, the First Amendment was not written to keep spirituality out of public life. On the contrary, it was written to keep the government from telling everyone who and how they had to worship.
Keep searching - you'll find Him.
Everyman's Friend
The most important thing for you at this point is to decide who REALLY drives the bus - God or man. Calvinists say "God", while Arminians say "man".
If you say "man", then you might as well keep on driving your own bus. But if you say "God", then the smart money says make sure you're on the one He's driving unless, of course, you don't care to go where He's going.
Your Arminian buddies are good boys, and well-intentioned but a little short on knowledge of God's Word. Calvin didn't write it, God did, and He's the one who tells us we're depraved. (Do I really have to convince you that you're naturally less than pink and pure?) You and I are old enough to know that what's being discussed here is more than "Follow The Leader" and "Simon Says". This is about Who runs all of creation, and whether or not He cares about what we're up to evey minute of the day. My guess is that since He tells me He is familiar with every hair on my head, then He probably also cares about more significant things about me - like where I'm going to spend eternity. Believe it or not, it's all there in His Book.
But like I said, don't take my word for it. Crank up your courage and check out Muggeridge and Strobel. And by the way, the First Amendment was not written to keep spirituality out of public life. On the contrary, it was written to keep the government from telling everyone who and how they had to worship.
Keep searching - you'll find Him.
Everyman's Friend
# posted by : 8:14 PM
: 8:14 PM
I support the First Amendemnt and Separation of Church and State but the result of the protection from unwanted preachers is a stark non spiritual environment in public schools.
eternity has no begiinning so you are already here spending it funny if heaven were Sussex County Delaware
eternity has no begiinning so you are already here spending it funny if heaven were Sussex County Delaware
Freddogg,
See, even a heathen like you senses the problem with posting "God Keep Out" signs in public life. We were all created with a God-size hole in our heart, and try as we might, it won't be filled with anything else.
The Founding Fathers knew this, but they also knew that no government should or could tell people how to fill it. Separation of church and state was never their intention, but unfortunately an activist Supreme Court in the late 1940s found the phrase in a Jeffersonian letter and used it to implement cultural change which we have "enjoyed" ever since.
Over the last 60 years we have kicked God out of school, work, leisure (school sporting events) accomplishment, (school honors ceremonies) and government. You've seen the result first-hand, and inherently know it is wrong.
Finally, since you brought up heaven, if you died today do you know where you'd be tomorrow?
Freddogg's Friend
See, even a heathen like you senses the problem with posting "God Keep Out" signs in public life. We were all created with a God-size hole in our heart, and try as we might, it won't be filled with anything else.
The Founding Fathers knew this, but they also knew that no government should or could tell people how to fill it. Separation of church and state was never their intention, but unfortunately an activist Supreme Court in the late 1940s found the phrase in a Jeffersonian letter and used it to implement cultural change which we have "enjoyed" ever since.
Over the last 60 years we have kicked God out of school, work, leisure (school sporting events) accomplishment, (school honors ceremonies) and government. You've seen the result first-hand, and inherently know it is wrong.
Finally, since you brought up heaven, if you died today do you know where you'd be tomorrow?
Freddogg's Friend
# posted by : 2:43 AM
: 2:43 AM
I am the master of surface knowledge. Bascially I will step off with a shrug of the shoulders when any subject requires too much depth or too many facts.
Some years back it was declared unlawful to teach the theory of creation along evolution even for purposes of a comparative argument. The fear is/was the teaching would become preaching.
I had six classes of seniors and so we did a quick comparison discusssing as best any of us could comprehend these two some what conflicting but not mutally exclusing theories as to the origin of man.
And then a secret vote to pick a theory.
Creationaism won even though by law only evolution was allowed to be taught in the school.
I don't know what that means or care but I think an education person doesn't preclude any theories because they may contaminate some belief system.
remember life is like a bridge and then again maye it's not.
Some years back it was declared unlawful to teach the theory of creation along evolution even for purposes of a comparative argument. The fear is/was the teaching would become preaching.
I had six classes of seniors and so we did a quick comparison discusssing as best any of us could comprehend these two some what conflicting but not mutally exclusing theories as to the origin of man.
And then a secret vote to pick a theory.
Creationaism won even though by law only evolution was allowed to be taught in the school.
I don't know what that means or care but I think an education person doesn't preclude any theories because they may contaminate some belief system.
remember life is like a bridge and then again maye it's not.
"Refrigerated" is the right answer -
YOU'RE OUR GRAND PRIZE WINNER TODAY!
...and where you're going on your one-way Grand Prize trip will guarantee that you'll never be cold again! Just imagine the blistering heat of a white-hot inferno that causes the most excruciating pain, and the good news is that you get to endure it forever!
Yes, Freddogg, forget that icy cold wind that blows in off the Atlantic during a February nor'easter. In your own little corner of hell, where the wailing and knashing of teeth never ends, you'll learn new ways of experiencing pain and suffering FOREVER!
Whoa! That's pretty bad imagery isn't it old buddy? Good thing it can't be true, right . . .right?
If you're not certain, you can do one of two things. You can continue to roll the dice (I personally think "bet the farm" is a better euphemism) that eternity will work out well for you, or you can begin a quest for the truth. One way is downright stupid, and the other is smart. After 35 years in education, my guess is you'll choose the smart option.
Again - Muggeridge and Strobel...Muggeridge and Strobel...Muggeridge and Strobel...will you please stop daydreaming and goofing off. I've got a lot of equally important work to do in many other places.
Gabriel
YOU'RE OUR GRAND PRIZE WINNER TODAY!
...and where you're going on your one-way Grand Prize trip will guarantee that you'll never be cold again! Just imagine the blistering heat of a white-hot inferno that causes the most excruciating pain, and the good news is that you get to endure it forever!
Yes, Freddogg, forget that icy cold wind that blows in off the Atlantic during a February nor'easter. In your own little corner of hell, where the wailing and knashing of teeth never ends, you'll learn new ways of experiencing pain and suffering FOREVER!
Whoa! That's pretty bad imagery isn't it old buddy? Good thing it can't be true, right . . .right?
If you're not certain, you can do one of two things. You can continue to roll the dice (I personally think "bet the farm" is a better euphemism) that eternity will work out well for you, or you can begin a quest for the truth. One way is downright stupid, and the other is smart. After 35 years in education, my guess is you'll choose the smart option.
Again - Muggeridge and Strobel...Muggeridge and Strobel...Muggeridge and Strobel...will you please stop daydreaming and goofing off. I've got a lot of equally important work to do in many other places.
Gabriel
# posted by : 9:51 AM
: 9:51 AM
White Heat Reference "Look Ma Top of the World" James Cagney
Love me or I'll burn your ass forever? Now that I don't get and don't want to get.
Love me or I'll burn your ass forever? Now that I don't get and don't want to get.
"Love me or I'll burn your ass forever" - that's not what I said.
You understand the need for lines on an athletic field. They are there for a reason. God gave humankind a lined field to play on, and unfortunately we went out of bounds.
This is where it all starts. If you think you're "inbounds", then you don't get the game. It's played on God's field, and we are not born qualified to even enter tht stadium. Fortunately, Jesus bought a big load of group tickets, and He alone gives them out. Like it or not, God has made it clear that's how we get in the game. Again, you either believe He makes the rules or you don't. To me that's a sucker bet, because I've got nothing to lose if when it's time for me to go to the game there's no ticket for me. What have I lost?
Read the Book man, it's all in there. I can prove to you it is written by God, not man. Are you interested, or content to just run off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings?
Gabriel
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You understand the need for lines on an athletic field. They are there for a reason. God gave humankind a lined field to play on, and unfortunately we went out of bounds.
This is where it all starts. If you think you're "inbounds", then you don't get the game. It's played on God's field, and we are not born qualified to even enter tht stadium. Fortunately, Jesus bought a big load of group tickets, and He alone gives them out. Like it or not, God has made it clear that's how we get in the game. Again, you either believe He makes the rules or you don't. To me that's a sucker bet, because I've got nothing to lose if when it's time for me to go to the game there's no ticket for me. What have I lost?
Read the Book man, it's all in there. I can prove to you it is written by God, not man. Are you interested, or content to just run off the cliff with the rest of the lemmings?
Gabriel
# posted by : 2:30 PM
: 2:30 PM << Home
